Lloyd Knibb's importance to Jamaican music can't be overstated.
The inventor of the ska beat at Coxson Dodd's Studio One, Knibb
created a sound that spread like wildfire the world over. In 1998,
the musical debt to Knibb grows, as ska has proliferated to its
furthest extent ever.
The following interview took place on March 23rd, 1998 in Lincoln,
Nebraska. I was joined by Lincoln's resident Jamaican music authority
and my sometimes radio co-host, Dan Batman.
Regarding Winston Grennan, you were telling me last night
that you did an interview together and . . .
He was talking to a girl in the college place in Albany. I went
to play, and he was our driver. It seem as if he know this girl
very well, because he told me that it was his girlfriend and all
that. She started to interview him, and he started to tell her
he was the originator of the ska beat, and I says 'Winston mon!
What kind of thing is that?' He just gwan and gwan, me just love
him, because [he knows it] was me.
So do you know how far he really goes back?
Well, him talk a lot of foolishness, because it wasn't really
nuttin. I can't remember. At the time, I wasn't really listening
to him, cause I was walking all around the place at that time
I was there, when him saying that. So him say 'Lloydie mon, forget
that . . .'
So tell me, there are a couple of things I want to know, first
about your drumming and also the history of percussion and different
African styles in Jamaica. You are credited with the burru style.
How would you differentiate . . .
Well, burru coming from calypso to the funde and the Rasta drumming,
the repeater, kette and thing like that. When I used to be around
Count Ossie and Count Ossie have a burru band. So you used to
play the repeater, and you have the bass drum and then you have
repeater, three of them. He kinda improvise, so one man playing
'bop bop, bop bop' (heartbeat rhythm --cvp). That's the heart.
Then the other guy going to play, 'boom . . baff . . . boom .
. baff' (alternate beats, 1&3 like the standard 'one drop'
drum and bass pattern). Then the repeater mon now, 'too too
kete ki teng ke, tetoto toom toom toom, toto plang plang te toto
plang' (I won't attempt a musical transcription of this --
cvp). But meanwhile you have to concentrate on funde, play
off of the funde and the bass drum. So now it is only I alone
concentrate and play everything. I play all three drums. The bass
drum, the funde and the repeater. So I mix all that with the ska
music and create a sound. Every now and again I put in a piece
of that. Coming from jazz, we used to play a lot of jazz with
Eric Dean's band. He used to play a lot of Latin tunes, Glen Miller
stuff, cha-cha, bolero.
Was that your first professional work?
No, that wasn't my first. My first professional work was in the
Val Bennett band. Gabriel, a trumpeter I used to know for a long
while, he introduced me to Val Bennett band. He said they wanted
a drummer, and is only I alone take [the old drummer's] place,
so I went. Everything was all right, and from Val Bennett band
to Stanley Headlam band to different different band, Jack Brown.
Eric Dean's was the most stable one, cause he last a very long
time until he went to England, some home troubles. Him break the
band to go to England. He died in England. So with all those different
beats, we used to play calypso, rumba -- they're almost the same
kind of sound. And we used to play quadrille, which is a mixture
tune, pure calypso sound. So all those sound put in one with the
jazz and everything that I know. I put everything in the ska music.
Did the folk sound that they call mento come from quadrille?
Mento is same kind of rumba. You call it rumba-mento. Is just
a different name a different sound, different beat.
There's an instrument in mento called a 'rumba box.'
Rumba box, that is played by a calypso band. That is being used
in a calypso band. Sometimes is three or four blades in the hole
[in] the box. Is a box like a [television], but it have a hole
in the middle and four steel blade, broad belt like barrel steel
-- the steel they put around a barrel. Well, they cut those and
use those for the different different bass notes. Then you have
a banjo. We used to use banjo first time, cause we never used
to have electric [power] in Jamaica, and electric guitar . . .
we used to haffe use a banjo. When you're going to the country
to play, you haffe use a banjo, you can't use a guitar, cause
a guitar is not loud enough, cause you don't have no mic, no electricity,
just carbide lamp around the place in the 50s.
So when you're explaining the burru style of Rasta drumming,
then when people talk about nyabinghi drumming, it's the same
thing?
Same thing, exactly.
Do you remember the first sides you recorded?
Bwai, that is a very hard thing. I wouldn't remember which was
the first tune. Because as boys we used to just do those things
to get money. We cut for everybody, from Duke Reid, Prince Buster,
Beverly's, Coxson [Dodd], you name them all, Pottinger. We play
for a lot of people and some outsiders come in.
This morning, Batman was playing some Owen Gray rhythm n' blues
style stuff. You played on those kinds of tunes too?
Yea man, that's where it started, rhythm n' blues. And then the
music change. Coxson call me in the studio one day and say 'Lloydie,
I wan change the beat you know? Find a beat.' Allright, I go inna
the studio and I start some different different beat. Start with
the burru style until I get on the second and fourth beat, everything
down, and putting the rest of the stuff in weh. The second and
fourth beat was the direct beat, and Coxson say 'yeah,' and that
was it.
That was the birth of ska?
Yea. From rock n'roll and rhythm and blues we just change to [ska].
And everybody just catch onto the beat and like the beat. And
everybody record everybody from Bob Marley, "One Cup of Coffee,"
I remember that. All them, Owen Gray, Delroy Wilson, Alton Ellis,
you name them all, they pass through our hands.
We did a show on the radio two weeks ago, ska, from his collection.
[To Batman] The first two tracks you played you said are often
called the first ska tracks . . .
Batman: Theophelous Beckford's "Easy Snappin."
Was that the Prince Buster or was that Coxson?
Batman & Lloyd Knibb: Coxson.
CVP: And then there was a Prince Buster tune . . .
Batman: I saw an interview once where somebody claimed that "Humpty
Dumpty" by Monty Morris was the first ska tune . . .
Knibb: Yea, I cut that tune, [but] that wasn't a ska tune. (Starts
singing with rhythm guitar skank), "Hump-tee Dump-tee
sat on a wall . . ."
Batman: What would you consider the first ska tune to be?
I couldn't remember, but the first ska tune was done in Studio
One, cause Coxson and I was in the studio creating, and I came
up with this.
CVP: We were wondering if some of the earliest indications
of ska were also in the way the rhythm guitar was played. (Compare
"Humpty Dumpty" and "Easy Snappin" -- cvp).
Yea, the guitar have a lot to do with it. And a guy by the name
of [Dennis 'Ska'] Campbell, who play ska, he play a tenor [sax].
And all he do in the studio was 'ah, ah, ah, ah, ah' (imitating
Ska Campbell's skank sound) with the guitar and the piano. Everybody
playing ska, but that tenor sound have a lot of thing to do with
the ska. Is a hard thing is that. I hear them say is that cause
Campbell to die, all he do is 'ah-hoo, ah-hoo, ah-hoo, ah-hoo!'
[A fit of laughter from Batman & me at this point].
And that is everyday, all day, sometimes all night. Sometimes
we go in the studio ten o-clock and we don't come out till ten
o'clock in the morning, especially at Coxson's. Sometime we start
in the night, sometime we start ten sometime we have a next session
to do, two session in the day, one with Duke Reid, probably [one
with] Federal, because Federal used to do a lot of things too.
So we have a lot of things just line up. When you finish one session
and going home, thinking to take it easy, there is somebody waiting
at your house, seh well you're supposed to come pon us.
Was there another set of session musicians that was kind of
like a second team?
Just one set of musicians which is just us.
Tell me about Drumbago.
Drumbago used to play from in those days. I took over from Drumbago,
because everybody like my beat more than Drumbago, so everybody
leave him alone.
So your beat was distinguished from his by the burru?
Yea, him don't know anything bout burru beats.
Cause he wasn't spending time with the Rasta drummers?
No, he wasn't around that. Him was a different kind of guy, a
quiet guy, home-ly guy [liked to stay at home --cvp]. Him never
acquainted with my kind of style.
I was also curious as to how Count Ossie got his opportunity
to get into a recording studio, considering, I understand at the
time that Rastas were cast aside.
No, no, no, no, not like that. No sir. Everybody always say bad
thing about Rasta, but you have good and bad in everything. And
the bad one is few. So he came to the studio with Duke, both of
us in the studio together. His band set up and I-man I set up,
recording, and when it finish recording, the drum playing, and
we dub over that. So that is how them used to do. Sometime Count
Ossie alone, with Bunny & Skitter. Bunny & Skitter was
Count Ossie singers.
What do you remember about hanging out in his yard?
It was good man, everybody free. All musician used to go by Count
Ossie, every musician. Everybody always meet, especially on Sunday
night time. Everybody bring them horn and play off the drum. So
is thing coming up from beginning.
[Batman hands Lloyd Knibb a copy of "Another Moses"
by Mello-Cat, Count Ossie & His Warickers [sic] b/w "Hully
Gully Rock" by Roland Alphonso and His Alley Cats (Blue Beat
DB54A/B)]
[Reading the label credits] "Anthony Morris, Mello-Cat, Count
Ossie, Warikas, Roland Alphonso and His Alley Cats . . ."
The Skatalites never form in these days, never form as yet. But
is the same group, the same group. Cause right now everybody who
done session, from they find out we are on the road, and we are
on top of the new ska music over here now, and we selling, Heartbeat
start put [cds] out, Coxson, you name them, Randy's start put
out cds.
One other question came to mind, cause I was reading [Brian
Keyo's] liner notes to the Heartbeat collection, and he talks
about Sonny Bradshaw's drummer Donald Jarrett.
He is a guy I try to play like, cause Donald Jarrett, when I was
a little boy, he used to have a jazz band. So they have this different
man, different different musician from different different band.
In those days, all the best jazz man. They have a twelve or a
fourteen piece [band]. So they used to practice over Beason Street,
50 Beason Street. And I was living at 116 West Street, so is close,
just round the corner. So I used to go over there every day and
sit down behind him and listen to him and watch him. And listen
to how them argument and listen how them talk and count. So every
day that gwan for about a month. So when I'm gone and I'm finish
now, I go over my house and take up two pan and start get my lickle
practice. Yea, start and make a ting and gwan! I end up going
to the Coney Island now. A guy name Lionel Proba(?) make a drum
for me, cause you never have no music store in Jamaica. But them
can make the drum. And him make the drum, make the pedal, make
the drumstand, make everything, just the bass drum, the tom-tom,
and the high-hat. Them make it different out of something else.
And make the cymbal stand different, so that was my lickle drum
[that I took] to the Coney Island to play, every night, two shilling
a night. You have some other places play five shilling a night.
You start from eight o'clock and you done twelve, playing in this
Coney Island -- a gambling place.
Who played with you at that?
Different different musicians. Those guys wasn't studio guy. Those
guy was long before studio [recordings]. All these was long before
studio. Studio never come until in the 50s.
This was in the 1940s?
This was in the 40s. I was about sixteen, seventeen them time.
Just coming in this music thing. That's where Gabriel come and
listen to me and say when him want a drummer, and I was right
there. So I get a lot of practice in the band and learn more stuff.
Gabriel is my friend, so in those days I always go down there.
Sonny always listen to him and give me a practice. And how them
count, cause I never know. Everything (seem to me as) 'one, two,
three, four, five, six, seven' . . .no! Is One, two, three, four,
Two, two three, four, Three, two, three, four, Four . . . so I
sit down and listen and take in everything. I am self taught,
so I always among the musician and listen how them talk and what
music [them listen to] until I get into the vibes. Yea.
Tell me then about when the beat slowed into the ska-steady
and rocksteady, how did those changes come about?
Well, we used to cut a lot of tune for Duke. He said to Tommy,
the people them kinda getting oldish, so cut down the tempo, so
we cut it down and call it rock steady. Just slow the beat down,
but is the same second and fourth beat. Alton Ellis was the first
guy start this rock steady. So after that, him come and say again,
slow the beat down one more time, and you call it reggae. Same
kind of beat, second and fourth. So that was it. We have three
stage of the music: ska, rock steady and reggae.
And you were with Tommy and the Supersonics?
Yea mon. Yea.
Now Winston Grennan and Hugh Malcolm and some of those drummers,
didn't they play an important part?
Malcolm used to be in the studio with me. So he watched me a lot
and listen to me a lot because he can play also, but him don't
have the direct ska beat. Him can play ska, but him don't have
the beat. Cause I used to go out on Sunday evening and late to
come back, and him would set up the drum and make them the start
the band. He is a good friend cause we in the studio together.
So them come up watching me and listening to me, but I don't think
he was in any big band stuff, just when ska music start and the
rock and roll thing.
What about [Studio One session drummer] Bunny Williams?
I taught Bunny Williams to play the drums in Montego Bay. And
the next guy by the name of Palatos. Palatos want to play congas,
so he bought a pair of congo drums. So all of us used to be up
by the Three Store building. All of us live together. Bunny live
deh so. Palatos live next to [me]. So Palatos came with this drum
and say him want learn to play, so I give him a beat to hold onto.
'Tu-toom pom, Tutu-toom pom.' And him say alright and him go out
and see if him can get a job playing with a calypso band. So him
come back and say, 'bwai, man deh seh dem cyaan use me.' Me say,
'how you play?' Him say, 'like how you show me.' Me seh, 'me show
you now.' And I take the drum and show him how to play: 'Boom,
boom'm'pom tu-toom pom to-toom-um-poka-pom,' until Palatos go
and practice and practice. Him playing three drums now. Well,
Bunny Williams, I taught him. And when Skatalites band mash-up,
and they had Soul Brothers, I was on the ship those time. And
I came back and was [at the] Orange Bowl listening to the band.
And Bunny saw me come in, and say, 'bwai breddah Lloyd, me cyaan
manage the ska thing. Me can't manage it.' So he gave me back
the sticks, and I never go back on the ship. I just stay with
Soul Brothers. And Soul Brothers never last me a long time.
Did a drummer named Joe Isaacs play with them too?
Joe Isaacs? With who?
CVP: Soul Brothers.
Batman: One Soul Brothers album credits Joe Isaacs, but I don't
know if that's accurate.
CVP: There's a picture [on the album] of a drummer, and it's not
you.
Batman: I think that Soul Brothers album is different because
it doesn't have Roland Alphonso on it.
Yea? Well, it's Roland used to run that band you know.
CVP: You never know when Coxson puts something out, what it
really is. That album is unusual because it actually has photographs
of everyone with their instrument. And then did you know the next
drummer at Studio One, his name was Phil Calendar?
Who? No sir. I don't remember him. I was away on the ship playing
music, Star Water and The Bahama Star (I'm unsure of these
names -- cvp)
How long were you off doing that?
About six years. Two different ship, until I came back and start
working with Cecil Lloyd (jazz pianist, also worked at Studio
One --cvp) and Len Hibbert (vibrophonist, also worked at
Studio One). I work with Cecil Lloyd for twelve years. I work
with Len Hibbert band for seven years in Ocho Rios. So all my
life is just hotel. After the Skatalites break up and everybody
scatter, I was in hotel playing. I used to live in Montego Bay.
That North Coast scene. And then did you have solid work with
the Skatalites once the Sunsplash [1983] took place?
Well, after Sunsplash it was over again, until Tommy came to the
United States in 85 and decide that he want to form a band, but
he tried out Winston Grennan and other musician, trying to recreate
the ska, but they didn't understand what's happening. They couldn't
get no work, cause it wasn't good. So a guy by the name of Herbie
Miller set up a thing with Tony Johnson [Sunsplash promoter].
The whole set of musicians was just coming here so they just put
us on the list. Send the visas, and we pay and go reach. From
we reach the band form, and that was it, 86. And we start get
job. [We] start with the Village Gate for about a month, playing
at the Village Gate every night.
Was Jackie Mittoo there?
Jackie was there.
How about Johnny Moore?
Johnny Moore wasn't there. He came to play with us, and him say
him cyaan stay, so him didn't stay with us. It was a different
trumpeter. Johnny never play.
He still plays for Bunny Wailer.
Yea, he still in a band with Bunny Wailer.
One last thing, back to the subject of the traditional drumming.
I also hear about something called Jonkanoo. What is that?
That is around Christmas time. Some guys dress up like queen face
and different mask, like Halloween. Those kind of dressing, you
call it masquerade. So they dress up man in . . . different different
kind of costume [and] like a float on the road, dancing, and the
drum is, 'blook-a-took-a-toomp-toomp,' and the fife a go, 'dee-nah,
dee-nee, dah-dee-nee.' And then them dress up all like the devil.
And the crowd following them dancing, going on. Some time I follow
them and get lost when I was a little boy. I live on West Street,
and I'd [be] following them dancing going and get lost.
Like the Pied Piper. . .
Bwai I'd get lost and say, 'what am I going to do now mon!' I'd
start make noise bawling and tell them I live on 16 West Street,
and them show me which part go walk down. It was alright.
When I was in Jamaica last time, I went to St. Thomas and heard
some kumina drumming.
Same kind of burru thing, but is a different sound.
Very fast.
Yea, is like the masquerade them use that kind of thing, same
kind of thing, yea mon.
You were always credited as 'Knibbs' until recently they started
putting it with no 's' on the end.
Oh boy. K-N-I-B-B. They put it wrong on a check! And I get it
to change still, cause is me same one. Some say K-N-I-B-B-S, some
say N-I-B-B-S.
I haven't seen it spelled correctly until probably two years
ago. All the old records are wrong!
Allright thank you very much for the time.
Allright, respect.
Thanks to Dan Schlissel for inadvertently helping this interview
to happen. Thanks to Batman for a nice amout of knowledge. Good
works!
